[Ancien coach] Roy Hodgson

[Brittanyred]

source : tomkinstimes.com

Bridging The Divide: Fans and Owners

Posted on December 16th, 2010

Posted by by Paul Tomkins

On Monday night, in a positive move, John W Henry and Tom Werner sat down at the club’s TV station to answer questions from fans on how they plan to run the club. Despite this bold decision, it may take a while for Liverpool’s new owners to speak the same language as the club’s fans. We may share English as a mother tongue, but there are cultural differences that may lead to a few misunderstandings along the way.

Supporters must not see a lack of major action so far as a sign of satisfaction or complacency. The majority of fans (if polls are anything to go by) may have valid reasons for wanting Roy Hodgson replaced, some of which I will list; but crucially – and the point of this piece – is that the owners may have valid reasons for biding their time.

NESV understand the balance between listening to fans and not bowing to their every whim. In some cases, I’ve seen fans turning their anger about Hodgson on the new owners, and that’s not right. ‘Internet terrorism’ – a phrase coined by Tom Hicks in relation to the justifiable online revolt that ended with NESV in control – was a great way to get rid of the Reds’ former owners. But it’s not the appropriate way to get rid of Roy Hodgson. (Whereas that was an organised protest, with lofty aims, this is more like the standard, random internet ranting – but perhaps a selection of fans think that they can influence everything at the club, now that a precedent of supporter power has been set.)

John Henry is only too aware of fans’ feelings on the manager, having been inundated with suggestions as to what to do with him on Twitter, even before the phone-in. You only have to search Henry’s timeline to see calm but negative opinion mixed with rabid ranting aimed at his account. If people want to make their feelings known about the manager, then that’s fair enough; that’s the right of being a supporter. But as with anything on the internet, it can often go too far.

(Having said that, the minutes immediately after bad result can lead to saying some daft things, and I’m not exempt here. While on the subject of Twitter, for the record – as I keep getting asked – John Henry unfollowed me because he only followed me originally in order to get in touch, after I ignored his message on Facebook for days, assuming it to be fake. I had also pointed out to him that I was being inundated with messages imploring me to make sure he was aware of those individuals’ feelings, and I felt like a rather overwhelmed piggy in the middle.)

Criticism

My criticisms of Roy Hodgson are well known. I feel less unhappy with him now than I did a couple of months ago, when not only were performances and results consistently awful, he just did not cut the figure of a Liverpool manager, with some bizarre press conferences and an apparently defeatist attitude. At one point I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing. Back then I wanted him gone immediately, because, like the captain of a ship shooting himself in the foot, he was simultaneously putting holes through the hull of the vessel.

But things improved, albeit not yet to an acceptable level. And with every shoot of green comes the spray of weed-killer. (See this Anfield Road article, which shows that, contrary to Hodgson’s view that only Arsenal and perhaps Manchester United have a better record in the past six games, the Reds sit 11th in the form table.)

The latest setback was seeing a Liverpool side with nothing to lose (but hearts and minds to win) fail to go and hunt their Dutch opponents, who seemed intent on keeping the ball at the back. Hodgson complained about the way Utrecht kept the ball, as if it was almost unsporting; well, if you manage Liverpool and you send out a side (including four of your own signings) that fails to even try and win the ball back from their defence because it doesn’t fit the ‘keep shape at all times’ ethic, then you will struggle to find any sympathy amongst fans; even those who got in for free.

Unfortunately, while league results have picked up slightly for the Reds to the point where we now sit mid-table rather than in the bottom three, other teams have also improved, and the top four have been pulling away; it’s now a 9-point gap to 4th place, and even Liverpool at their very best will struggle to whittle that down with a fraction over half the season left; especially as Spurs are better placed to capitalise on any slips.

(Having said that, the Reds’ next eight fixtures look ‘relatively’ easy on paper; then again, so did a trip to face Newcastle in chaos, and missing their two first-choice centre-backs, and the home game with Blackpool.)

My sense is that the season will peter out with Liverpool well adrift of the top four, but in no real danger of befalling the most shocking relegation since Manchester United’s in the early ‘70s. Even changing managers isn’t likely to get Liverpool into the top four after the start the Reds have had.

I need a hell of a lot of convincing that Hodgson can take the club forward in the long-term, but while I can see the pros of sacking him now (such as the chance for a new man to bed in ahead of next season), I also see the pros of keeping him until at least the summer.

NESV are fully aware of the perils of sacking managers; despite what people think, you can always make things worse. I don’t think we should criticise them for not rushing to make changes, because above all else they must be certain of finding the right replacement (and while some bosses could be lured out of their current jobs, there’s likely to be greater choice in the summer).

No doubt they want to avoid the trap of becoming a hire-’em-fire-’em club; otherwise, when you get the next man in, if he has a fallow period, the same calls will arise. They must also want to fully assess the man they’re currently employing, and what percentage of the blame lies with him and what percentage with the players.

But something happened this summer that is putting extra pressure on NESV.

Credibility and Precedents

A big problem in terms of Hodgson’s perceived job security relates to what is or is not now acceptable for Liverpool, given that a precedent was set by former executives in the dismissal of Rafa Benítez. As soon as a manager stops meeting that minimum target, fans – and not just the previous manager’s supporters – will say “but that is now the ‘firing’ line”. We can’t easily get away from that perception.

If you sack a manager who, since 2002, has won two La Liga titles, a European Cup, a Uefa Cup and an FA Cup, and who just 12 months before his dismissal had overseen the best title challenge by the Reds in 19 years, on account of finishing a disappointing 7th with 1.66 points per game, what do you do when the current incumbent – who, despite some achievements in the game, has no such major successes to fall back on – is performing more poorly, with the side lower in the table and winning points a rate of just 1.29 per game?

(For the record, Graeme Souness – the last sole manager to be replaced mid-season – left at a time when the Reds had 37 points from 24 games, or 1.54 per game. Of course, that was in his third uninspiring season, and embarrassing cup failures also played a part. Equally, that was at a time when everyone felt Liverpool should be winning the title, because the club had won so many so recently, which made the 8th position in which they sat in January 1994 seem all the worse. What Souness’ tenure shows, though, is that if you give the wrong manager time, it won’t get any better.)

But of course, the new owners did not sack Benítez. And in fairness to the new manager, for all his own shortcomings and errors, he did inherit an imperfect situation, due to the overall sense of chaos created by Gillett and Hicks. He can’t carry the can for everything, even if he is too quick to shift blame elsewhere when things go wrong.

The current owners cannot be blamed for the decision – made before they arrived – to give the job to a man who has a career-high of just 63 points in a season (when adjusting to three points for a win), a full nine lower than the Liverpool average of the man he has replaced.

In fairness to Hodgson, all but one of his best seasons involved only 22 or 26 games (the other successful one was 33 games with Copenhagen in 2001 – his last collection of silverware), and therefore the amount of points he could win was limited; extrapolate to 38 games and in his 35-year career he can boast seven seasons that exceed 72 points. But a 22 or 26 game season (which involves no real stamina issues) doesn’t really translate to the demands of the English league. Bar that one year with Copenhagen, all of these good seasons pre-date 1989, and all were in Scandinavia.

So when Hodgson speaks of his record, then for all its relative merits, it remains hard to find reassuring evidence that he is cut out for this particular job. He is a good manager. He is not an idiot. It’s just that there’s little proof that he is suited to Liverpool, and the different kind of approach that’s needed, and pressure that’s experienced.

Whatever the problems he has faced, he was brought in to improve things after a disappointing campaign, not make them worse; and if the squad wasn’t perfect, his own summer transfer work added to the problems by recruiting poorly – Meireles aside (and Cole, possibly, in theory at least) – and releasing good players who, until they were made to feel unwelcome, had wanted to stay. He has also had the benefit of those awful owners having slung their hooks, taking their pollution with them, to finally leave some clean air.

An instant fix was unrealistic, but as the main problem last year was the away record (just a year after the club’s best-ever on the road), then appointing a man with a universally poor away record doesn’t make a lot of sense. It’s gone from bad to worse, for both him and Liverpool FC.

Although it shows a wealth of experience, his CV just doesn’t inspire confidence; there’s a lack of credibility in terms of highest-level credentials. Liverpool have players who have won the World Cup, European Championship, Champions League and FA Cup during their time at the club, and others, like Joe Cole and Glen Johnson, who won the Premier League and other trophies before arriving. By comparison, Hodgson – for all his successful work in less-pressurised environments – looks under-qualified for a role such as this.

To make matters worse, Manchester United look poised to win their 19th title, and that will only make Liverpool fans increasingly scatty. Now, if United do achieve that it’s not Hodgson’s fault – the pattern of their ascent and our decline dates back to Souness’ watch, the last time when the clubs were on an equal financial footing – but it will only add to the dissatisfaction over a man seen as unlikely to even challenge Ferguson, let alone stop him, either now or in the future. Liverpool fans can’t even cling to a progressive style of football as their mental life raft.

It’s also interesting to note (as well as adding to the sense amongst fans that Hodgson has to go) that Newcastle and Blackburn both sacked their managers in the past week-or-so based on similar performance levels to Liverpool; and in terms of their expectations, expenditure and the overall quality of players in their ranks, far better performance, relatively speaking.

This baffles some Liverpool fans; if clubs relegated in the past few years, and who now have inexpensive squads, can sack a manager when mid-table (their realistic position?), why can’t Liverpool, when far below their ‘rightful’ place? But if we have to start using Mike Ashley and some chicken farmers as the yardstick we’re in trouble.

As I’ve noted in recent months, the style issue is much more problematic, but I won’t go over that ground too much here. What I will say is that Owen Coyle has quickly changed Bolton’s style from one similar to Hodgson under Gary Megson to a far more positive, attractive and successful approach.

It also shows how the same players – in that case, a very modest collection – quickly responded very differently to a new stimulus. (And so potentially pours scorn on Hodgson’s notion that no other manager could get better results with this group of players. If all managers achieve exactly the same thing, then why even have them?)

Of course, there will also be examples of changing managers only leading to worse results and performances; indeed, you could cite Hodgson as an example. Chelsea are also struggling by their standards, and yet they have a proven world-class manager. Sometimes, for all our efforts, football doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Act in Haste, Repent at Leisure

I guess the point of this piece is to show both sides of the argument: how many fans are feeling, after another testing week of lacklustre football, but also how the new owners cannot just quickly cave in to pressure.

With a Director of Football and the cultural differences in the way American sports teams are organised, it may be that the owners see the manager in slightly less vital terms than we’re used to. Damien Comolli’s role dilutes a manager’s traditionally all-powerful influence on transfers, even if Hodgson or any successor retains a say, and it seems that Peter Brukner is affecting team selections by insisting (sensibly, in this case) that Torres and Reina not be risked in a dead rubber against Utrecht.

But the mentality of the team comes from the manager, and his instructions to his charges. For all the expert organisation off the field, managers are still largely responsible for results because of their direct influence over the players and how they approach the game. They pick the XI, select the tactics and administer the team talks. They are at the coal face. Long-term vision from the owners is vital, but unhelpful short-term performance can delay the process.

Based on performances and results, fans are right to be unhappy. And although painted into a corner, John Henry was also right to describe results as “unacceptable” live on LFC TV. But personally speaking, I’m happy to let NESV take the time to get it right.

After all, it’s not in their interests to let things remain at an unacceptable level for too long, is it?

[Brittanyred]

De Tomkins je retiens ces éléments qui correspondent au fond de ma pensée :

My criticisms of Roy Hodgson are well known. I feel less unhappy with him now than I did a couple of months ago, when not only were performances and results consistently awful, he just did not cut the figure of a Liverpool manager, with some bizarre press conferences and an apparently defeatist attitude. [...]

But things improved, albeit not yet to an acceptable level.

--------------------------

Unfortunately, while league results have picked up slightly for the Reds to the point where we now sit mid-table rather than in the bottom three, other teams have also improved, and the top four have been pulling away; it’s now a 9-point gap to 4th place, and even Liverpool at their very best will struggle to whittle that down with a fraction over half the season left [...]

Even changing managers isn’t likely to get Liverpool into the top four after the start the Reds have had.

I need a hell of a lot of convincing that Hodgson can take the club forward in the long-term, but while I can see the pros of sacking him now (such as the chance for a new man to bed in ahead of next season), I also see the pros of keeping him until at least the summer.

[El Zhar]

Pour moi Roy est meilleur que rafa du moins pour le moment. Si les dirigents de l'inter veulent le limoger ce n'est pas pour rien, ils connaissent mieux le foot que nous. Roy n'est la que depuis peu. Il montrera ce qu'il sait faire.je rappel que fergie a mis 7 ans a faire gagner quelque chose a United. Biensur le fait est qu'on a pas 7 ans...

[Bugsy]

Pour moi Roy est meilleur que rafa du moins pour le moment. Si les dirigents de l'inter veulent le limoger ce n'est pas pour rien, ils connaissent mieux le foot que nous. Roy n'est la que depuis peu. Il montrera ce qu'il sait faire.je rappel que fergie a mis 7 ans a faire gagner quelque chose a United. Biensur le fait est qu'on a pas 7 ans...

C'est un gag? Roy n'a rien montré qui le rende meilleur que Rafa, j'aimerais bien connaître la raison pour laquelle tu dis ça. Si Moratti s'est séparé de Benitez, c'est à cause de sa fronde.

Et tu as raison, on a plus 7 ans: Rafa s'est fait virer au bout de cinq ans, en ayant passé deux/trois ans dans un club plongé dans un tempête administrative...

[robbiefowler80]

C'est clair que RH n'est pas responsable de tout.

Pour ma part j'aurais jamais pris RH pour remplacer RAFA.

Il y avait un entraineur libre sur le marché(MARTIN O'NEIL)lui il dégage quelques chose c'est pas comme RH

[Candy]

Pour moi Roy est meilleur que rafa du moins pour le moment. Si les dirigents de l'inter veulent le limoger ce n'est pas pour rien, ils connaissent mieux le foot que nous. Roy n'est la que depuis peu. Il montrera ce qu'il sait faire.je rappel que fergie a mis 7 ans a faire gagner quelque chose a United. Biensur le fait est qu'on a pas 7 ans...

Comment dire tout et son contraire dans la même phrase.

Je rappelle que Rafa et Roy sont arrivés dans leurs clubs respectifs (l'Inter et Liverpool) l'été passé, donc ils sont "jugés" sur la même période.

Tu précises que Roy est chez nous depuis peu. OK, je te l'accorde, mais Rafa est (était?) à l'Inter aussi depuis peu.

Si l'Inter veut virer (a viré?) Rafa, c'est parce que, comme Liverpool, l'Inter a de très hautes ambitions sportives. Tomber de la première place à la septième place de Série A, c'est comme descendre de la septième place à la neuvième (ou dixième?) place en Premier League.

Si Rafa avait eu de temps à l'Inter, il aurait pu montrer ce qu'il valait. Moratti n'a, semble-t-il, pas donner du temps à Rafa. Certains sur ce forum semblent contents de ce qui arrive à Rafa tout en voulant donner davantage de temps à Hodgson, allez comprendre pourquoi?

Si Rafa était si faible, pourquoi a-t-il connu des succès en Espagne et en Angleterre? Pourquoi des fans de Liverpool le tiennent-ils en haute estime six mois après son départ? (Sont-ils tous incultes?) Si Hodgson était vraiment l'homme de la situation, pourquoi la sauce ne prend-elle pas? (Si l'équipe actuelle n'est pas la sienne, je rappelle que le "mauvais" Rafa avait gagné la Champions League avec une équipe qui n'était pas la sienne, alors qu'Houillier n'avait rien fait (ou presque) en CL avec une équipe qui était la sienne en 2003 & 2004.)

Bref, El Zhar, je mets ta mauvais remarque sur le fait que tu l'as posté à une heure tardive.

[rodofromparis]

Pour moi Roy est meilleur que rafa du moins pour le moment. Si les dirigents de l'inter veulent le limoger ce n'est pas pour rien, ils connaissent mieux le foot que nous. Roy n'est la que depuis peu. Il montrera ce qu'il sait faire.je rappel que fergie a mis 7 ans a faire gagner quelque chose a United. Biensur le fait est qu'on a pas 7 ans...

Des fois je me dis que pour relever le niveau du forum il est impératif d'apprendre le football à quelques uns...

[rodofromparis]

Optimisme à toute épreuve:

20 September: “Sir Alex is entitled to any opinion he wants to have” (After Ferguson accused Torres of diving)

I prefer to talk about the game and talk about issues that interest me. Sir Alex is entitled to any opinion he wants to have but I'm not going to come here and say I agree or disagree. I thought the referee refereed the game very well and I have a very ambivalent attitude to those type of things.

22 September: “They’ll be a formidable challenge” (Before facing Fourth Division Northampton Town)

They'll pressure us, they'll be young and athletic, and our scouts have been quite impressed by what they've seen. They'll be a formidable challenge - there's no question about that.

25 September: “We deserved our point” (After drawing at home to Sunderland)

There are no easy home wins in the Premier League, you have to fight for everything. The way we came back from 2-1 down was very commendable and towards the end of the game we were creating a lot of chances. We deserved our point.

1 October: “We don’t play with wingers” (On why Meireles was played on the right of midfield)

We don't play with wingers. The way he plays and the way Joe Cole plays, we think (playing wide midfield) is more than suited to their qualities. We saw evidence of that in the game because they often got into situations where they received and turned with the ball - especially in the first half. I think we can get some use from Raul Meireles there with his passing ability.

6 October: “I don't think I have suddenly changed or lost any ability”

I know the question is going to get asked but it shouldn't really be asked by people who have been in football a long time, because we all know in the game you have good and bad moments. At the end of May I was having a fantastic moment and here at the beginning of October I'm having bad moments. But I don't think I have suddenly changed or lost any ability which has served me so well in 35 years of coaching.

17 October: “To get a result here would have been Utopia” (On the defeat to Everton)

To get a result here would have been Utopia. But I can only analyse the performance. There is no point trying to analyse dreams.

17 October: “Maybe it is just a bit of dust” (On the poor start to the season)

Like everyone else I get really immersed in the subject. I start looking through the eye of the microscope at the miniscule particles of dust, trying to see if there is an atom there. Maybe it is just a bit of dust.

30 October: “We’ve got those types of players ourselves”

We all know January is often a market for clubs trying to move on players they don't want. I don't want to be taking people's leftovers. We've got those types of players ourselves. If we are going to improve we need better.

20 November: “In his naivety and frustration” (After previously not commenting on Capello reneging on the agreement to substitute Gerrard)

I don't know if I am being diplomatic, I am simply refusing to prolong a debate. Our fitness coach, Darren, in his naivety and frustration, was foolish enough to voice an opinion on Twitter and that's led to these two days of vitriol. I think it's time we got it stopped.

20 November: “There will always be a certain number of people who wanted a different manager”

Every time I speak to you about fans, you seem to have a complete monopoly on how every fan thinks. How many of them? There will always be a certain number of people who wanted a different manager and are probably still unhappy they did not get that manager. I have every faith in Liverpool fans. Every manager who has come to this club has been well supported by the fans. Every manager has gone through periods where the team has not achieved what the fans would like them to achieve, so I have no fears in that respect.

27 November: “’Liverpool will get worse and worse’ is what he said”

Everyone I know in football respects the job I’m doing here and aren’t too surprised it hasn’t been an easy start. In fact, 95 per cent would have predicted it as [Jose] Mourinho did. ‘Liverpool will get worse and worse’ is what he said and if the great man Mourinho says it, I don’t know why you don’t quote him!

20 December: “Sometimes i'm frightened as a manager..”

I'm frightened as a manager that I might get rid of a player who will be good for the club on the basis that there might be a name out there that looks a bit higher than the player you already have at the club.When that player comes in and you work with them for two months, you realise that the name is great and it rings big bells but, in actual fact, he is no better than the player you let go. He maybe even worse.

[Invité Electro]

Bordel que c'est calamiteux ..

Ce passage me fait gerber ..

“To get a result here would have been Utopia” (On the defeat to Everton)

To get a result here would have been Utopia. But I can only analyse the performance. There is no point trying to analyse dreams.

[Brittanyred]

je rappelle que le "mauvais" Rafa avait gagné la Champions League avec une équipe qui n'était pas la sienne, alors qu'Houillier n'avait rien fait (ou presque) en CL avec une équipe qui était la sienne en 2003 & 2004.)

Rafa exceptionnel en CL c'est un fait, mais Houllier attaqué pour sa faible campagne de CL en 2004, c'est une perle, vu que l'équipe n'était pas qualifiée (5e en 2003). Le premier qui a ramené Liverpool en CL, c'est Le Boss, et en quart de finale en 2002, perdu d'un petit but d'écart, avec Owen qui rate la balle de match (et une demi contre Manchester) d'un cheveux. L'année ou les Reds font leur deuxième total depuis les 80's avec 80 pts et deuxième (premier total : Rafa avec 86 pts il y a deux ans)

Jerzy Dudek, Sami Hyypiä, Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard, Dietmar Hamann, John Arne Riise, Vladimir Smicer : les joueurs qui ont participé au quart de finale en 2002, emmagasinant de l'experience (tous ont fait une campagne 2005 irréprochable). C'est bien Rafa qui était le manager en 2005, pas Houllier, mais les bases ne dataient pas de 2005. Manchester, dans les 90's, n'a pas atteint la finale du premier coup. Ils ont fait leur gamme et des places d'honneur le temps d'acquérir l'expérience et de l'emporter. L'experience de Liverpool en CL n'est pas tombée du ciel.

[scouser]

Rafa exceptionnel en CL c'est un fait, mais Houllier attaqué pour sa faible campagne de CL en 2004, c'est une perle, vu que l'équipe n'était pas qualifiée (5e en 2003). Le premier qui a ramené Liverpool en CL, c'est Le Boss, et en quart de finale en 2002, perdu d'un petit but d'écart, avec Owen qui rate la balle de match (et une demi contre Manchester) d'un cheveux. L'année ou les Reds font leur deuxième total depuis les 80's avec 80 pts et deuxième (premier total : Rafa avec 86 pts il y a deux ans)

Jerzy Dudek, Sami Hyypiä, Jamie Carragher, Steven Gerrard, Dietmar Hamann, John Arne Riise, Vladimir Smicer : les joueurs qui ont participé au quart de finale en 2002, emmagasinant de l'experience (tous ont fait une campagne 2005 irréprochable). C'est bien Rafa qui était le manager en 2005, pas Houllier, mais les bases ne dataient pas de 2005. Manchester, dans les 90's, n'a pas atteint la finale du premier coup. Ils ont fait leur gamme et des places d'honneur le temps d'acquérir l'expérience et de l'emporter. L'experience de Liverpool en CL n'est pas tombée du ciel.

C'est vrai, mais tu fais aussi preuve de grande mauvaise foi car ce fameux quart de 2002, perdu d'un seul petit but, était reconnue comme l'une des plus grandes erreurs de coaching de Houllier, alors que le match était en passe d'etre gagné.

C'est dingue, comme on peut orienter les faits selon son bon vouloir...

[El Zhar]

Benitez est arriver en même temps que Roy je te l'accorde mais va me dire que l effectif de l'Inter vaut celui de Liverpool... En aucun cas. De plus, on a d'un cote un club qui sort d une saison monstrueuse avec un triplé et de l'autre un club qui est a la dérive. Donc rien, mais alors rien a voir. 

Je ne connais pas le foot tu dis ? Bah on peux tj organiser un quizz ou un match amical que jte mette 2 ou 3 virgules ^^. Aller hop ça c'est fait.

[scouser]

Benitez est arriver en même temps que Roy je te l'accorde mais va me dire que l effectif de l'Inter vaut celui de Liverpool... En aucun cas. De plus, on a d'un cote un club qui sort d une saison monstrueuse avec un triplé et de l'autre un club qui est a la dérive. Donc rien, mais alors rien a voir. 

Je ne connais pas le foot tu dis ? Bah on peux tj organiser un quizz ou un match amical que jte mette 2 ou 3 virgules ^^. Aller hop ça c'est fait.

Parce que selon toi, il est plus facile de maintenir une equipe qui a fait un historique triplé avec une saison à 70+ matchs que de redresser une équipe qui finit 7eme?

Je rejoins Rodo, tu connais pas grand chose au foot.

[WeAreLiverpool]

Pour moi les deux défis sont compliqués on peut dire que l'Inter n'a plus soif de victoires etc etc ... et que Benitez n'a pas pu recruter et on peut aussi dire que Hodgson a une équipe démoralisé donc pour moi ni le poste de Rafa ni celui de Roy n'est facile à gérer

[El Zhar]

Mais t'est sérieux la ? Il est 100 fois plus facile de maintenir une equipe qui était deja au sommet que de faire monter une équipe. Même si c'est moins glorieux. Essai donc de mettre Ancelotti a Everton par exemple et tu me diras si il est aussi bon... Ce qu' as fait Roy avec fullham est un exploit !

Ps relis ton message parce que c'est exactement ce que j'ai dit. Tas du mal t exprimer.

Modifié le 22 décembre 2010 par El Zhar

[El Zhar]

Effectivement, une chose est sur en tout cas c'est que hodgson comme Benitez est dans le petrain si il ne fait pas quelque chose verry quickly, j'ai peur que la patience de NESV ne soit pas la même que celle de la FFF lol

Modifié le 22 décembre 2010 par El Zhar

[Henry Chinaski]

Mais t'est sérieux la ? Il est 100 fois plus facile de maintenir une equipe qui était deja au sommet que de faire monter une équipe. Même si c'est moins glorieux. Essai donc de mettre Ancelotti a Everton par exemple et tu me diras si il est aussi bon... Ce qu' as fait Roy avec fullham est un exploit !

encore une fois tu as tout faux....

[El Zhar]

Okay donc si tétait entraineur le mieux et le plus facile pour toi ce serai d entrainer genre Villareal au lieu de Barcelone...

Okay je m arrête la, c'est tout a fait logique comme raisonnement. Jsuis convaincu.

Pardon zizou dieu du foot, ils ne savent pas ce qu'ils disent ^^

Modifié le 22 décembre 2010 par El Zhar

[scouser]

Okay donc si tétait entraineur le mieux et le plus facile pour toi ce serai d entrainer genre Villareal au lieu de Barcelone...

Okay je m arrête la, c'est tout a fait logique comme raisonnement. Jsuis convaincu.

Je persiste et signe, il est bien plus dur de maintenir une equipe au top, que de monter de la 7eme place à la 4eme, ce qui est notre objectif de la saison.

CLAIREMENT.

Et oui, el Zhar, c'est un fait reconnu. C'est une chose d'arriver au top, c'en est une toute autre que d'y rester!

[El Zhar]

Bah écoute chacun a un point de vue sur la question j'ai peut être tord, tout comme toi, mais c'est pas une raison de me traiter d inculte du football. J'aurais aussi pu le faire 100 fois sur le forum mec. Fin bref je pense qu'on a un peu trop dévier.

J'espère vraiment que Hodgson s'en sortira, c'est un bon coach, il a seulement besoin de temps

Modifié le 22 décembre 2010 par El Zhar

[Henry Chinaski]

Je persiste et signe, il est bien plus dur de maintenir une equipe au top, que de monter de la 7eme place à la 4eme, ce qui est notre objectif de la saison.

CLAIREMENT.

Et oui, el Zhar, c'est un fait reconnu. C'est une chose d'arriver au top, c'en est une toute autre que d'y rester!

c'est d'une évidence!

On est tous d'accord las-dessus sauf El Zhar visiblement...

[matlehulk]

Okay donc si tétait entraineur le mieux et le plus facile pour toi ce serai d entrainer genre Villareal au lieu de Barcelone...

Okay je m arrête la, c'est tout a fait logique comme raisonnement. Jsuis convaincu.

Pardon zizou dieu du foot, ils ne savent pas ce qu'ils disent ^^

Personne n'a dit ça.

Il n'est pas plus facile d'entraîner une équipe "moyenne" qu'une équipe "excellente".

En revanche, il est plus facile de faire gagner une ou deux places à une équipe de milieu de tableau (ou de première moitié à la limite) que de conquérir plusieurs années de suite le même titre. Barcelone, pour reprendre ton exemple, n'a pas fait 2 saisons de suite comme en 2009. Idem pour MU en 1999, Liverpool en 2001, et probablement pour l'Inter ou le Bayern cette année.

Donc la prochaine fois, avant de faire de l'ironie sur la qualité de raisonnement d'un autre forumeur, n'hésite pas à fournir un peu d'arguments plutôt que de jouer seulement l'ironie et d'invoquer Zidane. La question étant vraiment intéressante de mon point de vue, pas la peine de jouer à "c'est toi le plus con" et de gâcher les débats.

[WeAreLiverpool]

Villareal est un mauvais exemple car c'est l'équipe qui joue le mieux au ballon après le Barca en Liga

[El Zhar]

Villareal est un mauvais exemple car c'est l'équipe qui joue le mieux au ballon après le Barca en Liga

C'est vrai mauvais exemple, villareal est juste derrière le réal en plus. Mais quand même a 10 points.

Dailleur le cote jeu espagnol que Roy n as pas et que benitez avait va surrement nous manquer. Autre point interressant a soulever.

[matlehulk]

C'est vrai mauvais exemple, villareal est juste derrière le réal en plus. Mais quand même a 10 points.

Dailleur le cote jeu espagnol que Roy n as pas et que benitez avait va surrement nous manquer. Autre point interressant a soulever.

C'est TON exemple que je reprenais.

Tu es très fort. J'en suis surpris (ce qui n'est pas si fréquent). C'était bien entendu le raisonnement général (quel type d'équipe est le plus simple à entraîner), et pas juste un exemple qui semblait important.

Mode "premierdegrénesoyezpasassezcouillonspourycroirenirépondre" on

Mais, puisqu'il n'est pas si simple de voir la grande image (amis anglophones, à vos traduction), j'ai regardé le classement de Villareal l'an passé. Et, ô surprise, ils ont terminé 7e l'an dernier (à 43 points du champion), et sont 3e à 10 points à (quasiment) mi-parcours. Ils ont donc progressé. Alors que Barcelone non. Ils étaient premiers, et ont la même place.

/terminé